New locations of - Vipera (ursinii) macrops

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New locations of - Vipera (ursinii) macrops

Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Do Jul 14, 2005 20:18

In letzter Zeit wurde Vipera (ursinii) macrops wiederholt auf der küstennahen nördlichen Balkan-Halbinsel gefunden. Damit erscheint ein tatsächliches Vorkommen auf der Insel Krk immer möglicher.

Vipera (ursinii) macrops have been found in the northern coastal near parts of the Balkan peninsula before some time. Therefore a distribution at the island Krk becomes more possible.
Mario Schweiger

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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Di Okt 11, 2005 17:44

In the last years, Vipera ursinii "macrops" have been found at different places in the Velebit mountain range, Croatia.
Here are 3 pics we have got from these vipers.

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Zuletzt geändert von Vipersgarden am Mo Nov 28, 2005 16:19, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.
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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Fr Okt 21, 2005 0:20

Dear all,

I have got a picture of a Vipera ursinii macrops (known locality).
Please check the pics above and have a look, if it could be the same individual.

Please post your comments HERE !!!

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For a full resolution picture ask per mail please ( app. 500 KB)!!
Zuletzt geändert von Vipersgarden am Mo Nov 28, 2005 16:21, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Fr Okt 21, 2005 14:15

For a more easy comparison I have put the 2nd from the tank pics and the one on the rocks together in one picture.
Have a look to the Lyra on the vipers head (what is very unususual in Vipera ursinii macrops) and the zigzag-band, especially the first windings.

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Zuletzt geändert von Vipersgarden am Mo Nov 28, 2005 16:22, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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Beitragvon David Bird » Fr Okt 21, 2005 15:38

That is much better now you are talking in my language. Also much better with the photos at higher magnification I can see that what I thought was a gap in the vertebral stripe is in fact a piece of light coloured grass cutting across the black. The pattern does seem to be the same with the same variation in thickness of lines that connect up the blotches and the shape of the mark at the back of the head. Also the spot and line just below and in front of this. Looks very similar unless someone has found a way to clone V.ursinii and not told us yet. Am awaiting the full story with interest.


David
Librarian & Chairman of Conservation Committee of British Herpetological Society

Croatian conservation

Beitragvon Croatian conservation » Fr Okt 21, 2005 16:27

Vipera ursinii is strictly protected by law in the Republic of Croatia, and is assigned to the HIGHEST protection category as its montane populations are very small and thus prone to extinction. Anyone found harrasing and/or capturing the snake will face prosecution and imprisonment. I plead to the person who has found the snake to keep the location secret and not to disclose it to anyone. Some of the localities are, luckily, mine fields and anyone stupid enough to go there might encounter a mine before a snake.

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Beitragvon Berus » Fr Okt 21, 2005 17:04

Yes, Mario,
so far as can be judged from these two photographs, they do seem to depict the same individual.
I suppose this should be just an introduction into something, and just as David, I'm also awaiting
the full story... or as full as can be revealed under the circumstances.
Berislav Horvatic'
Zagreb, Kroatien
horvatic@ifs.hr

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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Fr Okt 21, 2005 19:04

@ Croatian Conservation

Yes Vipera ursinii is protected by law at the highest level in Croatia. Here is the link to a list of all protected species and also the fees in Kuna for collecting, killing a.s.o.
http://www.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeno/1996/1504.htm
Vipera ursinii is also protected by the Washington Convention (Appendix I for all European populations) and Bern Convention (Appendix A). Also these are the highest levels.

Mario
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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Sa Okt 22, 2005 10:10

THE STORY ON THESE VELEBIT VIPERA URSINII

When getting the pics of these Velebit-ursinii´s (second posting within this topic), the locality "Zavizan" was given. This is a mountain in the northern Velebit mountain range. This area would be the most northern distribution of the subspecies macrops, except for some old and questionable reports from the island Krk.

No names and exact localities will be given here.

Some time later I´ve got the picture of another Vipera ursinii, shown in the third posting here. The snake looks very similar to one of the "Zavizan"-vipers.
But this snake was found in the Dinarian Alps in Bosnia-Hercegovina (BiH).

After postings from David and Berislav, sharing my opinion, it is definately the same snake, I will tell you the story:

3 Vipera ursinii from BiH have been taken by a Croatian amateur herpetologist to Croatia and kept in an outdoor terrarium for some time. During this period, people from the Paklenica National Park came there to take some "good pictures" of Vipera ammodytes from northern Velebit, a species, which is kept also by this man. Also they took pictures of these ursinii´s, without asking, where they are from.

And so they have got the same locality like the Vipera ammodytes - Zavizan mountain, northern Velebit.
This is a possibility, how wrong distribution areas find their way to literature !

These Vipera ursinii have been released at their original habitat and locality later.

SORRY, THERE ARE NO VIPERA URSINII IN NORTHERN VELEBIT !!

Mario
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Beitragvon Berus » Sa Okt 22, 2005 19:24

Quite a story indeed.

For the time being, I'd like to comment only on your last sentence, which came
as a kind of conclusion - an unwarranted one, both from a purely logical standpoint
as well as from what we do know of the Northern Velebit.

> SORRY, THERE ARE NO VIPERA URSINII IN NORTHERN VELEBIT

Mario, I suppose you are aware of the fact that one can not assert anything
like that (solely on these grounds.) If this particular confirmation of Vipera
ursinii in the Northern Velebit has proven fake, as it seems to have, that does
not preclude the possibility of finding it there. ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT
EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE. The Northern Velebit is a possible habitat of V. ursinii,
looks just fine (says Herbi as well), and the only question is whether the ursiniis
themselves have taken that into account or not...
Maybe they do live there, as they very well might, maybe not, that is something
that remains to be found out empirically, in the field.

P. S.

If absence of evidence does persist for a longer time, in spite of repeated efforts,
that might be an indication of absence, but still not a proof.
Berislav Horvatic'
Zagreb, Kroatien
horvatic@ifs.hr

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Beitragvon David Bird » Mo Okt 24, 2005 12:12

This story emphasises the need to check almost every detail of any information that one finds. I have found so many pieces of information about rare species and their distribution that get passed down through the literature as fact, are in fact incorrect if one has the time and chance to read or even ask the original source when often a totally different story evolves. This, I might add is purely the English species and not just Herpetofauna, when foreign papers or people are involved when there is difficulty in an exact translation it increase this innacuracy ten fold.
Several countries in the Balkans have towns or areas with several names because of the chequered past with changes in the various "ruling countries" so this adds to problems when searching out old literature. I alwayd check and double check anything before posting or writing anything but know many that just post ideas or hearsay without stating that it is not a carefully verified fact.
Thanks for chasing this one up Mario.

David
Librarian & Chairman of Conservation Committee of British Herpetological Society

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Beitragvon Berus » Do Dez 01, 2005 19:20

OK, so we have lost the proof (but not necessarily the hope as well)
of Vipera (ursinii) macrops in the Northern Velebit - it was either a
deception or just a mere misunderstanding (not on the part of the
wrongdoer, but of the photographer and the rest.) Now some better
news, this time from the Southern Velebit:

Prompted by Mario Schweiger and the above sad story, I visited the
Croatian Natural History Museum in Zagreb, Croatia, and inspected
their specimen No 3788. Here are the results, triple-checked this time
(in view of the above sad story):

Vipera (ursinii) macrops

Hrvatski prirodoslovni muzej
Croatian Natural History Museum
Zagreb, Croatia

HPM specimen No 3788

found at Veliki Štirovac (cca. 1200 m a.s.l.),
Southern Velebit, "National Park Paklenica"

legavit: Domagoj Došen, 25 July 2001

donavit: Gordan Lukač, 03 August 2001

imagines fecit: Berislav Horvatić, 09 November 2005


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And last but not least, a single (big) apical scale in contact with rostral:

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Full-size pictures (5 megapixels ~ 2.5 MB each), not only these ones,
are obtainable from Mario Schweiger or me on request.
Berislav Horvatic'
Zagreb, Kroatien
horvatic@ifs.hr

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Beitragvon Christoph » Fr Aug 01, 2008 22:00

No new locations but some new pictures taken three days ago in the Dinaric Alps on the Croatian part. We were not successful on two 1.200m mountains, maybe due to high temperature. On the third 1.000+m mountain and towards the end of the day we could observe two of them :D :D

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Beste Grüße

Christoph

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