Podarcis male or female? and other taxonomy issues

Lacertidae, Agamidae, Gekkonidae a.s.o.

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Beitragvon Berus » Di Apr 04, 2006 14:26

@ Gerald:

> Er meint dass er nie behauptet hat, der Gattungsname hat sich nach dem Artnamen zu richten
> - serwohl aber hat sich der Artname nach dem Gattungsnamen zu richten (andere Richtung)...

Yes, of course, it seems that finally everybody has agreed on that.
However, there is the other part:

>... und da Seps [männl] -> Podarcis [lt. Böhme folglich männlich]

But how, for God's sake, that is what this whole discussion has been about,
for nine years already.

> ... -> richtet sich der Artname nun auch nach dem männlich gewordenem Podarcis,
> sprich ist auch männlich -> siculus z.B.

Yes, but only after the genus name Podarcis has been defined as masculine,
if we still agree with Böhme's first sentence, as we should.
In his second sentence Böhme implies that the species name muralis,
having been defined as masculine by the combination Seps muralis,
has somehow remained "frozen" in its (masculine) gender and transferred
its (now permanently masculine) gender to the genus name Podarcis
via the newly established combination Podarcis muralis:
"Wenn also Podarcis ... an den durch Seps maskulinisierten Namen gekoppelt worden ist,
dann ist Podarcis zum männlichen Substantiv geworden."
So, I understand that the mechanism of masculinization of Podarcis proposed here
is that the gender of a species name (muralis) has defined the gender of a genus
name (Podarcis). And haven't we just agreed that it should not go like that?
Zuletzt geändert von Berus am Di Apr 04, 2006 16:07, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.
Berislav Horvatic'
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Beitragvon Cornelia » Di Apr 04, 2006 15:13

Ich würd ja bei dem Spiel auch gern mitspielen, wenn ich nur irgendwas verstehen würd ... :?:
Was heißt Podarcis eigentlich?
Cornelia

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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Di Apr 04, 2006 15:19

Podarcis = altgriechisch und heisst so viel wie "schnellen Fußes".
Mario Schweiger

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Beitragvon Jeroen » Mi Apr 05, 2006 19:01

@ Berus: other arguments have been put forward in later papers so it's not just the Seps issue that favours masculinity for Podarcis

@ Srutl: of course, there's an inflation and it's all man-made, but names are necessary for humans to understand the biodiversity structure of nature and that's what it's all about, no? in the mean time, I believe discussion is healthy, even on less 'important' matters. As VipersGarden tried to demonstrate, molecular techniques are a clear progress but people are too anxious to describe species (under whatever species concept). Concerning "genus concepts", such a thing does not exist indeed, but some cases are clear e.g. paraphyly (e.g. Triturus s.l.).

In the end, we all should be critical and keep our brain at work. Or you can just say "I don't care" and go back to Linnaeus and talk about Lacerta vulgaris and a single species of water frog. And rather than letting each person choose its own species names list, I prefer TRYING to apply objectivity and reason. And yes, its hard to find all of that in this Podarcis issue but I stick with the ICZN which states that in case of doubt the name has to be masculine. Another option might be to ask the ICZN to protect the names.

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Beitragvon Berus » Mi Apr 05, 2006 19:38

@ Jeroen:
I have read the latest paper and went through the new arguments, but I also think that no new arguments can save the logical contradictions of old ones. I would like to clearly understand all of them, both "old" and "new", before I reach any decision. That's fair, and that's scientific, isn't it?
What you call "the Seps issue" should better be dismissed and forgotten. It is not only contradictory, but also irrelevant for the line of reasoning based on those "new" arguments, as correctly noted by W. Mayer.

@ everybody:
In the Roman Senate the senators could vote pro, contra, or raise a tablet with the inscription NL, short for non liquet (not clear), which meant that they insisted on further clarification of the matter before they could decide either pro or contra
I'm showing an NL tablet and asking for the same. Here is only the first unclear point:

There is a statement in the latest paper by Böhme and Köhler (2004) that I really do not understand: "that Wagler (1830) did not combine the generic name Podarcis with any species and therefore did not demonstrate the intended gender of the genus." Maybe my question is trivial and/or childish, but I would like to know what Wagler did create in 1830. An empty box (or drawer or folder) named "Podarcis"?! A new genus without any species? Did Fitzinger have to come 13 years later to fill Wagler's empty box "Podarcis"with muralis (and possibly some other, less ambiguous stuff as well)?
Could anyone enlighten me on this?
Berislav Horvatic'
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Beitragvon Jeroen » Mi Apr 05, 2006 19:44

Berus hat geschrieben:What you call "the Seps issue" should better be dismissed and forgotten.

I tend to agree with you on that one, Berislav.

Berus hat geschrieben:A new genus without any species?

Don't know for a fact at all, but maybe something like Lacerta (Podarcis) sicula ? ? ? Anyone?

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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Mi Apr 05, 2006 19:51

I will be in the Vienna museum on Thursday, April 20th. Maybe also on Thursday, April 13th, when I´m not to late to the capital.
There I will have a look at the WAGLER paper. I´ve heared, there is a footnote, describing the name Podarcis in Latin, and here masculine !?
I will have a look and post. So be patient please.
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Beitragvon Berus » Mi Apr 05, 2006 19:53

I think that it is crucial to understand what precisely Wagler did in 1830
and what Fitzinger did 13 years later. If one doesn't know that, the rest
of argumentation is senseless.
Berislav Horvatic'
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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Fr Apr 21, 2006 10:09

Wie versprochen, habe ich mir bei meinem letzten Wien Besuch WAGLER, 1830 angesehen.
Hier der relevante Textabschnitt der Seite 155:

Bild

Beachte die Fussnote von Podarcis = 2
Pedibus celer - das ist eindeutig männlich.

Daher wären ja die ganzen Diskussionen über das Geschlecht von Podarcis gar nicht nötig gewesen, da Wagler es ja selbst eindeutig als männlich beschrieben hat.

Tut mir für alle leid, die Schwierigkeiten beim Umlernen haben, aber es heißt:
Podarcis siculus
Mario Schweiger

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Beitragvon Berus » Fr Apr 21, 2006 16:16

Thanks for the trouble, Mario, now we at least know what Wagler did write.
However, I wouldn't jump to a conclusion like yours so readily. In his footnote
No 2 Wagler is only explaining the (Greek) etymology of the genus name
"Podarcis", i.e., he gives a translation of a Greek adjective into Latin. It is
just a dictionary entry, and for adjectives one usually gives an entry like
that in masculine gender for short, if not in all three, like e. g. here:
celer -eris -ere, swift, quick, rapid; in a bad sense, hasty, rash.
Adv. celere and celeriter.
E. g., if you wanted to explain what the English word "swift" means in German,
you would most probably write "swift = schnell", not "schnelle" or "schnelles",
and I strongly suppose that Wagler has just done the same.
So, it is not so obvious that a mere footnote entry "podarkes = pedibus celer"
should unequivocally define the gender of the genus name introduced above,
which, by the way, is (or should be) a noun, not an adjective, and a noun
nonexistent in Classical Latin at that...
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Beitragvon Vipersgarden » Fr Apr 21, 2006 17:04

Es geht nicht um celer, sondern um:
pes, pedis; masc. der Fuss.
pedipus celer = der schnelle, hurtige, rasche Fuss
Mario Schweiger

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Beitragvon Berus » Fr Apr 21, 2006 17:33

Sorry, Mario, have a better look at Wagler's text:
it is "pedibus celer", not "pedipus celer", and
"pedibus" is a dative or ablative of "pedes" = "feet", i.e.,
"pedibus" = "at feet". So, "pedibus celer" is an adjective,
just as "podarkes" is in Greek, meaning "with swift feet"
or "swift at feet" or "swiftfooted".
Berislav Horvatic'
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